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4 minutes ago, hipower said:

  The other side of that is I see unions protecting employees who should not be working at the expense of better workers. 

This is my fear of a union. I wouldn't want that as an operator, and I definitely don't want that as a manager. Typically when a union gets a foot in the door down here, that's where it starts. A disgruntled employee.

That's why I run my landfill the way I do. My men respect me, and I respect them. I was an operator once, too, and I treat them the way I would want to be treated. I take ownership of my operation, and my men take ownership of their jobs. We don't want an outside group to be the mediator.

I would imagine the operators there are the same way. If they are like a typical landfill, they have all been working there for years. I see much less turnover in the waste industry than I did in construction. Most operators I know at my landfill and others have been there 10+ years. Chances are the operators were there before the current owners were. That's why I don't understand the silence...

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On 8/25/2017 at 0:25 PM, landfillguy said:

This is my fear of a union. I wouldn't want that as an operator, and I definitely don't want that as a manager. Typically when a union gets a foot in the door down here, that's where it starts. A disgruntled employee.

That's why I run my landfill the way I do. My men respect me, and I respect them. I was an operator once, too, and I treat them the way I would want to be treated. I take ownership of my operation, and my men take ownership of their jobs. We don't want an outside group to be the mediator.

I would imagine the operators there are the same way. If they are like a typical landfill, they have all been working there for years. I see much less turnover in the waste industry than I did in construction. Most operators I know at my landfill and others have been there 10+ years. Chances are the operators were there before the current owners were. That's why I don't understand the silence...

Job security?

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3 minutes ago, DuBoiser said:

Job security?

After what happened in Feb., I wouldn't feel very secure...

Don't get me wrong, that's easy for me to say when I don't know the area, don't know how hard it is to find a job, and just because we haven't heard from them doesn't mean they are being silent. I just wish that this would turn into a referendum on certain aspects of our industry rather than being a local issue that just disappears, but that is already happening. I said last week that the OSHA report would allow everyone else to say "they handled it wrong", and that is pretty much the response I get when discussing the story with others here

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45 minutes ago, michael880 said:

And with a union they could speak out without fear of losing their jobs. 

That may well be the case, and exactly what they need, I just have no experience with unions. I've tried to look at this whole situation like how I would handle it if it happened here

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1 hour ago, landfillguy said:

That may well be the case, and exactly what they need, I just have no experience with unions. I've tried to look at this whole situation like how I would handle it if it happened here

Those who work there are pretty well paid, and finding another job like it would be a problem around here.  

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3 minutes ago, Petee said:

Those who work there are pretty well paid, and finding another job like it would be a problem around here.  

Actually they aren't paid that well at all for the danger that they are put into on a daily basis.

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No, there's no compensation that would be enough to risk stupid and unethical bosses, but in comparison to the wages around the area, it's not bad.  However, I saw that Brookville Wood Products has a sign on their fence for $13 an hour and benefits.  That is also a very dangerous place to work but hopefully the bosses are looking out for the employees and not their own paychecks.

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On 8/28/2017 at 5:11 PM, michael880 said:

And with a union they could speak out without fear of losing their jobs. 

I've been on all sides of this, union, non-union, hourly employee and management.  I can assure you that if I wanted to get rid of a union employee there are ways to make that reality.  You rarely hear of the failures of a union to protect employees, only their successes.  There are plenty of good examples of both sides, but there is no absolute security blanket from paying union dues.

In the case of the Greentree employees, I would suggest that should they want to push for change, they get their info assembled and their support lined up, then get this to the news media anonymously.  I say that since I have seen no evidence thus far that the government agency(s) responsible for effecting change are doing their jobs.  While everyone may be playing a waiting game there doesn't seem to be much activity from the political side either.   That makes me nervous as to the agenda of our elected officials.  That would start at the Fox Township supervisors and go through Elk County, Harrisburg and beyond.

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1 hour ago, hipower said:

In the case of the Greentree employees, I would suggest that should they want to push for change, they get their info assembled and their support lined up, then get this to the news media anonymously.  I say that since I have seen no evidence thus far that the government agency(s) responsible for effecting change are doing their jobs.  While everyone may be playing a waiting game there doesn't seem to be much activity from the political side either.   That makes me nervous as to the agenda of our elected officials.  That would start at the Fox Township supervisors and go through Elk County, Harrisburg and beyond.

Joe Scarnati is currently the President pro tempore of the Pennsylvania State Senate. He is originally from Brockway and I don't remember seeing where he made any statements about the accident.

 

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8 minutes ago, orphanne said:

Joe Scarnati is currently the President pro tempore of the Pennsylvania State Senate. He is originally from Brockway and I don't remember seeing where he made any statements about the accident.

 

Supports my point.  Don't you think?  Matt Gabler represents Elk County and I don't recall any statements from him either.  If I'm wrong I apologize in advance for throwing Matt under the bus..

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1 hour ago, hipower said:

I've been on all sides of this, union, non-union, hourly employee and management.  I can assure you that if I wanted to get rid of a union employee there are ways to make that reality.  You rarely hear of the failures of a union to protect employees, only their successes.  There are plenty of good examples of both sides, but there is no absolute security blanket from paying union dues.

In the case of the Greentree employees, I would suggest that should they want to push for change, they get their info assembled and their support lined up, then get this to the news media anonymously.  I say that since I have seen no evidence thus far that the government agency(s) responsible for effecting change are doing their jobs.  While everyone may be playing a waiting game there doesn't seem to be much activity from the political side either.   That makes me nervous as to the agenda of our elected officials.  That would start at the Fox Township supervisors and go through Elk County, Harrisburg and beyond.

Awe but you wouldn't be trying to fire 1 employee you would be trying to fire every employee.

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14 minutes ago, michael880 said:

Awe but you wouldn't be trying to fire 1 employee you would be trying to fire every employee.

True, but even a waterfall started with a single drop of water.   In most cases eliminating one or two people swings the pendulum the other way.  I had a location where the work rules were costing significant dollars and during the negotiation of a new contract the union would not allow them to change.  After months of negotiation we made the decision to shut down a multi-million dollar facility and move the work to another existing site 40 miles away.  Same union, different local, and members who would work with management for the good of the business.

The employees couldn't believe that their stubbornness could result in 30+ lost jobs, but it did.  Every employee there was making in excess of $60K annually and had a benefit package that was well beyond the industry standard.  Unions have good as well as bad, but they are not a cure all.  Good, flexible employees and responsive management make a far better working environment than adversarial  workplaces. 

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At least 25 years ago when I think BFI owned the landfill I knew a few operators who wanted to unionize.  One of them even went to a nationwide company competition but that didn't stop them from being let go.  

Rather than getting the Union to fight the individuals moved on to other jobs.

 

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On 8/30/2017 at 11:51 AM, hipower said:

True, but even a waterfall started with a single drop of water.   In most cases eliminating one or two people swings the pendulum the other way.  I had a location where the work rules were costing significant dollars and during the negotiation of a new contract the union would not allow them to change.  After months of negotiation we made the decision to shut down a multi-million dollar facility and move the work to another existing site 40 miles away.  Same union, different local, and members who would work with management for the good of the business.

The employees couldn't believe that their stubbornness could result in 30+ lost jobs, but it did.  Every employee there was making in excess of $60K annually and had a benefit package that was well beyond the industry standard.  Unions have good as well as bad, but they are not a cure all.  Good, flexible employees and responsive management make a far better working environment than adversarial  workplaces.

Oh I know unions have bad parts. They squeeze employers monetary till their dang near making no profit. But ya ain't gonna move a landfill so just firing everyone and relocating ain't gonna work and no arbitrary judge is gonna sight with an employer when the work stop age is over safety hazards that can cause death. 
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On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 11:20 AM, michael880 said:

Awe but you wouldn't be trying to fire 1 employee you would be trying to fire every employee.

I don't want the core issue of this tragedy to become a union debate. A union wouldn't have prevented that collapse. I don't blame the collapse entirely on the owners of the landfill, it's an industry wide problem. There are certain materials that make a landfill unstable. Those materials bring in a lot of money. There are no rules set in stone on how much you can take, or how to integrate that material into a landfill. The onus isn't even completely on the landfill. The producers of that material could be forced to change the consistency of the material, which would also be very expensive. Many landfills are currently sliding to a certain degree. Greentree is the first implosion of an entire cell I have heard of, and things were done there that compounded the problem, but the root cause of that collapse is a festering problem that gets worse every year. As more municipalities push to recycle and compost normal municipal solid waste, less MSW is available to mix with the special wastes to stabilize them. That's fine, recycling and composting are good things, but when the makeup of a waste stream changes that dramatically, steps need to be taken to ensure the safety of the operators. I want Greentree to be a warning sign to the industry, not just the owners. These landfills are designed to hold this waste forever, we are still learning what happens at the bottom of a pile that is 200 feet tall and 30 years old, and the current waste stream is far different than what it was then. The entire industry needs to take a deep breath and look at what we are doing to the sustainability of our landfills. Greentree should be a watershed moment

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Just now, michael880 said:

What I'm saying is when the problem started to be noticed the union would have protected the workers from retribution for not going up their till it was safe. These workers where working in conditions they new wasn't safe. Afraid of losing their jobs if they said anything. A union would have gave them protection.

That's assuming the employees knew how dangerous it was, or didn't want to go back up there. It is management's job to know what is happening in that landfill, and if the employees weren't afraid, then it wouldn't have come up in a union meeting. I understand what you are saying, but a union doesn't decide what happens in a landfill operationally. If that landfill were unionized and the employees went on strike, there would be operators brought in from other landfills, possibly from anywhere in the nation, to keep the operation running. You can't just close a landfill, it would impact every home and business within a 75 mile radius. There are contingency plans for a strike. The landfill has to operate

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Also, the federal government gives workers protection from retribution, retaliation, discrimination, etc..., and by law those rules have to be posted in a highly visible place available to all employees. You ever walk into a business and see a bulletin board up with a lot of legal looking posters and printouts on it? Look on the wall behind the drive through window at a fast food restaurant. Stop and read a few of them sometime, that's what that is. Those rules have numbers to call with complaints. There are options

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1 hour ago, landfillguy said:

That's assuming the employees knew how dangerous it was, or didn't want to go back up there. It is management's job to know what is happening in that landfill, and if the employees weren't afraid, then it wouldn't have come up in a union meeting. I understand what you are saying, but a union doesn't decide what happens in a landfill operationally. If that landfill were unionized and the employees went on strike, there would be operators brought in from other landfills, possibly from anywhere in the nation, to keep the operation running. You can't just close a landfill, it would impact every home and business within a 75 mile radius. There are contingency plans for a strike. The landfill has to operate

After listening to the cell phone calls between a couple of employees that WJAC aired, I think that they were very afraid. And one worker spoke to Kody from WJAC under anonymity because he was afraid of losing his job. I have to agree with Micheal, if unionized, the employees wouldn't have to be afraid of exposing what was going on. They all saw the danger and that it was building. Most of these guys live paycheck to paycheck, they don't get good wages from AD and they have families to support. We've talked to four of them, they were all afraid. And they're still afraid of speaking out because they need their jobs, it's just a really sad situation. I was so hoping that something would be done, but a 12000 fine just doesn't cut it. For a life lost and they're just really lucky that many more lives weren't lost that day. 

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16 minutes ago, michael880 said:

I worked at ups for Christmas and recall them shutting the line down and all deliveries pulled over because of a safety issue. We sat there eating our lunches till the dispute was settled. 

He's saying you can't shut a landfill down for any length of time because it could turn into a public health disaster.

They don't have a union,  so forming one now wouldn't help the workers with what happened in February.  

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