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Lupara

Finally some parity in state playoffs

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1 hour ago, Lupara said:

I’d like to see it, but the only entities I see this affecting are charter schools which are already operating on the fringe.

Could I see them legislating a change to how the PIAA classifies Catholic school teams that have the ability to reach beyond their district? Yes. But one of the unforeseen consequences would be to public schools that rely on co-ops to participate in some sports.


"Be still, my fingers, be still" - fedup

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I think it's important to define the schools as boundary (public) and non-boundary (private, catholic, charter, prep, etc).  This takes away the confusion of proving if the private school was actively engaged in recruiting or not.  This is long overdue.  It's no longer just a few private schools encroaching on the publics.  You have the preps, charters, and other academies that exist for the sole purpose of manufacturing D1 athletes.  Expecting a public school to compete against these factories is ridiculous. 

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51 minutes ago, Lupara said:

Right now the most important thing is to find out where our local state reps stand on this issue and on behalf of the kids, let your opinion be heard. 

Already done.  I've spent too many years as either an athlete or a coach watching private schools dominate state playoffs.  It's time for separate brackets. 

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26 minutes ago, MIM307 said:

Already done.  I've spent too many years as either an athlete or a coach watching private schools dominate state playoffs.  It's time for separate brackets. 

Have the reps shared their stance? Scarnati and Gabler?

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I am against it.  First, I think Conklin's argument of creating a "fair competition" and his quote of " When you have a 150-lbs lineman lined up against someone who weighs 300-lbs, nothing good can come of that." is poor.  HOW will any legislation create "fair competition"?  If this exact scenario occurs post-legislation, are they not going to allow one or the other play?  What's next, weight limits...like in pee-wee football!?  Conklin says it's a "safety issue"...In what way?

If this passes and I'm a private school, I want the ability to openly recruit.  Because you now narrowed my competition and force me to travel great distances, making my program less attractive.  

Life isn't fair, so why are we lying to kids by telling them that their youth sports are?  Instead of politicians making laws or people complaining, how about we show these kids ways to defeat Goliath.  How their talents/abilities are just as good as their opponents.  Coach these kids to believe in themselves.   

Because of ALL that, I say leave it alone.

 

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1 hour ago, Lupara said:

Have the reps shared their stance? Scarnati and Gabler?

Maybe when there is a actual bill that they can look at then they can form a opinion. 

Sometimes these proposals get bogged down when others attach amendments to a original bill.

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1 hour ago, Keyser Soze said:

Maybe when there is a actual bill that they can look at then they can form a opinion. 

Sometimes these proposals get bogged down when others attach amendments to a original bill.

Basically what Scarnati told me. He shares my concerns and stated others have expressed similar concerns.  Once a bill is actually out, I will revisit him and Dush. 

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2 hours ago, Cacao said:

I am against it.  First, I think Conklin's argument of creating a "fair competition" and his quote of " When you have a 150-lbs lineman lined up against someone who weighs 300-lbs, nothing good can come of that." is poor.  HOW will any legislation create "fair competition"?  If this exact scenario occurs post-legislation, are they not going to allow one or the other play?  What's next, weight limits...like in pee-wee football!?  Conklin says it's a "safety issue"...In what way?

If this passes and I'm a private school, I want the ability to openly recruit.  Because you now narrowed my competition and force me to travel great distances, making my program less attractive.  

Life isn't fair, so why are we lying to kids by telling them that their youth sports are?  Instead of politicians making laws or people complaining, how about we show these kids ways to defeat Goliath.  How their talents/abilities are just as good as their opponents.  Coach these kids to believe in themselves.   

Because of ALL that, I say leave it alone.

 

You can legislate fairness by making all schools follow the same rules. 

Locally DCC and ECC have openly recruited for years. Shaena Mosch? Rocky Davis?  Both came to DCC for sports. Davis attempted to return to his public school to play football but thankfully D9 committee stopped that from happening. When Pat Lewis was at Cameron County he spoke of 3 girls openly recruited for basketball by ECC. Those are just a handful of examples.  Kids aren't driving from Clearfield,  Clarion,  Houtzdale, etc to DuBois just for the education.  Let's call a spade a spade there. 

Private schools could still play public schools in regular season.  Come playoff time, they need their separate brackets. Too far to travel? C'mon.  Kennedy Catholic, Bishop Guilfoyle, Bishop McCort, and any other host of private schools are within an hour and half drive.  Playoff time means big travel time now. Coudy to Karns City. Enough said. 

No reason not to separate into public and private playoff brackets. Let's finally even the playing field. 

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48 minutes ago, Keyser Soze said:

I think Rocky Davis had to sit out his Jr year .He then played for Clarion Limestone in 2002.  

Sheana Mosch attended St Francis in Clearfied then went to DCC

I am aware Davis had to sit out, after his transfer to DCC for baseball the previous year. I stated so in my original post. 

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13 hours ago, MIM307 said:

You can legislate fairness by making all schools follow the same rules. 

Locally DCC and ECC have openly recruited for years. Shaena Mosch? Rocky Davis?  Both came to DCC for sports. Davis attempted to return to his public school to play football but thankfully D9 committee stopped that from happening. When Pat Lewis was at Cameron County he spoke of 3 girls openly recruited for basketball by ECC. Those are just a handful of examples.  Kids aren't driving from Clearfield,  Clarion,  Houtzdale, etc to DuBois just for the education.  Let's call a spade a spade there. 

Private schools could still play public schools in regular season.  Come playoff time, they need their separate brackets. Too far to travel? C'mon.  Kennedy Catholic, Bishop Guilfoyle, Bishop McCort, and any other host of private schools are within an hour and half drive.  Playoff time means big travel time now. Coudy to Karns City. Enough said. 

No reason not to separate into public and private playoff brackets. Let's finally even the playing field. 

HA, false!  NEITHER school has openly recruited in any sport.  NEITHER recruit, period!  Sheana Mosch attended private school since her St. Francis days in Clearfield.  Rocky Davis saw an opportunity to join a very good baseball team and his parents pushed him to transfer. 

I am not familiar with Pat Lewis, but if that is in fact true, why didn't Pat Lewis file the necessary paperwork so the PIAA could investigate?  Or was Pat Lewis upset that 3 players wanted to play elsewhere and he jumped to the conclusion of recruiting? 

Yes, actually some kids are driving that far for a religious education.  Imagine that, teenagers who believe in their faith or want to surround themselves with caring people in a relaxed atmosphere.  No school is perfect, but ECC/DCC do not have a fraction of the social issues that public schools have.  Much less drama.

All of the schools you mentioned are much further than Ridgway, Brockway, Brookville, etc.for first round playoff sites.

People are so quick to jump to recruiting when a kid with talent/ability transfers to a private school.  What about when the opposite happens?  Somehow that's not labeled as recruiting.  I'm not sure a lot of people even know what recruiting is.

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12 minutes ago, Cacao said:

HA, false!  NEITHER school has openly recruited in any sport.  NEITHER recruit, period!  Sheana Mosch attended private school since her St. Francis days in Clearfield.  Rocky Davis saw an opportunity to join a very good baseball team and his parents pushed him to transfer. 

I am not familiar with Pat Lewis, but if that is in fact true, why didn't Pat Lewis file the necessary paperwork so the PIAA could investigate?  Or was Pat Lewis upset that 3 players wanted to play elsewhere and he jumped to the conclusion of recruiting? 

Yes, actually some kids are driving that far for a religious education.  Imagine that, teenagers who believe in their faith or want to surround themselves with caring people in a relaxed atmosphere.  No school is perfect, but ECC/DCC do not have a fraction of the social issues that public schools have.  Much less drama.

All of the schools you mentioned are much further than Ridgway, Brockway, Brookville, etc.for first round playoff sites.

People are so quick to jump to recruiting when a kid with talent/ability transfers to a private school.  What about when the opposite happens?  Somehow that's not labeled as recruiting.  I'm not sure a lot of people even know what recruiting is.

Pat Lewis was the Cameron County girls basketball coach for a 20+ years.  He's now the PSU DuBois girls coach.  I will give you Shaena Mosch.  I apologize for including her in the recruiting, I had forgotten she was a St. Francis kid prior to Central.  When Rocky Davis leaves his public school to go to play baseball at a private school and then wants to jump back to his public school for football the next season, that's due to recruiting.  Nothing more. 

I am in and out of all schools in Clearfield and Jefferson counties every day.  I completely disagree with your assessment that DCC does not have the social issues that publics have.  I can't speak to ECC as I haven't' been in that school.  Kids are kids.  Whether they are in a uniform or a pair of jeans.  Walking in the doors of a public school doesn't remove the social issues that follow them.  Period. 

If Catholic/private schools are truly superior to public schools, why wouldn't they want their own playoff bracket?  Why wouldn't they want to compete against the best of the best?  Makes no sense to me as to why a private school would be against separating public and private come playoff time.  What's your reasoning for not separating? 

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20 minutes ago, MIM307 said:

Pat Lewis was the Cameron County girls basketball coach for a 20+ years.  He's now the PSU DuBois girls coach.  I will give you Shaena Mosch.  I apologize for including her in the recruiting, I had forgotten she was a St. Francis kid prior to Central.  When Rocky Davis leaves his public school to go to play baseball at a private school and then wants to jump back to his public school for football the next season, that's due to recruiting.  Nothing more. 

I am in and out of all schools in Clearfield and Jefferson counties every day.  I completely disagree with your assessment that DCC does not have the social issues that publics have.  I can't speak to ECC as I haven't' been in that school.  Kids are kids.  Whether they are in a uniform or a pair of jeans.  Walking in the doors of a public school doesn't remove the social issues that follow them.  Period. 

If Catholic/private schools are truly superior to public schools, why wouldn't they want their own playoff bracket?  Why wouldn't they want to compete against the best of the best?  Makes no sense to me as to why a private school would be against separating public and private come playoff time.  What's your reasoning for not separating? 

Just because a kids jumps around doesn't means it's recruiting.  No coach or school official promised him anything so he would attend the school and play their sports.  He did that because he and his father are...well...idiots.  They thought they could do what they wanted and bounce around without repercussion.  Rocky was NOT welcomed onto that DCC with open arms by the coaching staff or players. 

I too am in/out of local schools.  Maybe we pass each other...I'll high-five ya!  I did not say that they do not have social issues.  I said they "have a fraction of the social issues..."  DCC/ECC have similar issues, but it's on a much lesser scale.  Less crazy parents of students too.  Actually, if parents are paying for education the chances are greater that there's encouragement at home.  Therefore, a more successful student is the result. 

Exactly, private schools are not superior.  Those who rely on false accusations and innuendo create the narrative that private schools are superior.  No one listens to or cares about facts. 

Why shouldn't private compete against public?  They're all 15-18 year old kids competing in the same sport.  Why should we segregate them come playoff time...or anytime?  

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8 minutes ago, Cacao said:

Just because a kids jumps around doesn't means it's recruiting.  No coach or school official promised him anything so he would attend the school and play their sports.  He did that because he and his father are...well...idiots.  They thought they could do what they wanted and bounce around without repercussion.  Rocky was NOT welcomed onto that DCC with open arms by the coaching staff or players. 

I too am in/out of local schools.  Maybe we pass each other...I'll high-five ya!  I did not say that they do not have social issues.  I said they "have a fraction of the social issues..."  DCC/ECC have similar issues, but it's on a much lesser scale.  Less crazy parents of students too.  Actually, if parents are paying for education the chances are greater that there's encouragement at home.  Therefore, a more successful student is the result. 

Exactly, private schools are not superior.  Those who rely on false accusations and innuendo create the narrative that private schools are superior.  No one listens to or cares about facts. 

Why shouldn't private compete against public?  They're all 15-18 year old kids competing in the same sport.  Why should we segregate them come playoff time...or anytime?  

I would welcome a hello or high five.  I would also greatly disagree with your assessment that parents paying for an education = more vested parents.  I wish I could share you with the numerous examples were this was not the case, but I cannot. 

I believe we should segregate them at playoff time because kids from public schools are restricted by the boundaries of their public school and kids from private schools are not restricted by the same boundaries.  This simple distinction allows private schools to  include students from numerous communities and thus gives them an unfair advantage over public schools.  I don't have such an issue with little DCC/ECC bringing kids in from local communities, but there is a problem on a larger, statewide scale.  It's no longer just private, religious schools in the state.  Now there's private academies, preps, charters, etc and many of these private schools exist for the sole purpose of turning out D1 athletes.  How is fair to have these sports factories competing against a school that is only pulling kids from within their set boundary?  Wasn't it Kennedy a few years ago that had a basketball player from the state of Ohio on the team?  Why was that kid allowed to compete in the PA state basketball playoffs?  It's just wrong.  It's unfair.  It's time the publics and privates were separated for playoffs. 

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1 minute ago, MIM307 said:

I would welcome a hello or high five.  I would also greatly disagree with your assessment that parents paying for an education = more vested parents.  I wish I could share you with the numerous examples were this was not the case, but I cannot. 

I believe we should segregate them at playoff time because kids from public schools are restricted by the boundaries of their public school and kids from private schools are not restricted by the same boundaries.  This simple distinction allows private schools to  include students from numerous communities and thus gives them an unfair advantage over public schools.  I don't have such an issue with little DCC/ECC bringing kids in from local communities, but there is a problem on a larger, statewide scale.  It's no longer just private, religious schools in the state.  Now there's private academies, preps, charters, etc and many of these private schools exist for the sole purpose of turning out D1 athletes.  How is fair to have these sports factories competing against a school that is only pulling kids from within their set boundary?  Wasn't it Kennedy a few years ago that had a basketball player from the state of Ohio on the team?  Why was that kid allowed to compete in the PA state basketball playoffs?  It's just wrong.  It's unfair.  It's time the publics and privates were separated for playoffs. 

You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said it's a fact that paying for education = more vested parents.  I said, "if parents are paying for education the chances are greater that there's encouragement at home.  Therefore, a more successful student is the result."  Chances are greater.  Not a sure thing.

Open boundaries does not guarantee better talent.  If there is better talent, that talent need to come up with tuition.  I believe this entire argument should be focused on students who live in NJ, for example, and attend a PA charter/private school.  That should not be allowed.  

Honestly look at these "sports factories" and what's the difference?  It's not that the kids are magically better or skilled at their sport.  It's the coaching, resources and dedication to the program.  With that, it creates better athletes who are prepared to compete.  In life, that's what it boils down to...preparation.  Those who are best prepared will come out on top.

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15 minutes ago, Cacao said:

You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said it's a fact that paying for education = more vested parents.  I said, "if parents are paying for education the chances are greater that there's encouragement at home.  Therefore, a more successful student is the result."  Chances are greater.  Not a sure thing.

Open boundaries does not guarantee better talent.  If there is better talent, that talent need to come up with tuition.  I believe this entire argument should be focused on students who live in NJ, for example, and attend a PA charter/private school.  That should not be allowed.  

Honestly look at these "sports factories" and what's the difference?  It's not that the kids are magically better or skilled at their sport.  It's the coaching, resources and dedication to the program.  With that, it creates better athletes who are prepared to compete.  In life, that's what it boils down to...preparation.  Those who are best prepared will come out on top.

I took the general meaning of your quote. 

The sports factories schools, and private schools in general,  have no business competing against a public, boundary specific, school in playoffs.  Period.  You won't change my mind on this and I won't change yours.  Agree to disagree and move on.

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I think we can agree where the most recruiting violations are near the big cities where Catholic schools and charters are. Heck, there are some kids who transfer 2 or 3 times from 9-12 grades near the cities. All Districts need uniform transfer regulations.   

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26 minutes ago, Cacao said:

You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said it's a fact that paying for education = more vested parents.  I said, "if parents are paying for education the chances are greater that there's encouragement at home.  Therefore, a more successful student is the result."  Chances are greater.  Not a sure thing.

Open boundaries does not guarantee better talent.  If there is better talent, that talent need to come up with tuition.  I believe this entire argument should be focused on students who live in NJ, for example, and attend a PA charter/private school.  That should not be allowed.  

Honestly look at these "sports factories" and what's the difference?  It's not that the kids are magically better or skilled at their sport.  It's the coaching, resources and dedication to the program.  With that, it creates better athletes who are prepared to compete.  In life, that's what it boils down to...preparation.  Those who are best prepared will come out on top.

It also happens with Youngstown and Eastern Ohio kids attending Kennedy Catholic or Erie Cathedral prep. Philly is out of control.

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14 minutes ago, jaman said:

I think we can agree where the most recruiting violations are near the big cities where Catholic schools and charters are. Heck, there are some kids who transfer 2 or 3 times from 9-12 grades near the cities. All Districts need uniform transfer regulations.   

True.  So why paint with a broad brush?  If it were happening like some believe, DCC would not have lost to North Clarion last night.  Especially not by 17 points.

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13 minutes ago, jaman said:

It also happens with Youngstown and Eastern Ohio kids attending Kennedy Catholic or Erie Cathedral prep. Philly is out of control.

Yes, anyone who doesn't live in the state should not play for another state.  I also do not agree with Kennedy marketing to basketball players in Europe a chance to "live in the US for a year" and setting up host families.  They should be penalized, but they found a hole in the PIAA rules.

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1 hour ago, Cacao said:

Yes, anyone who doesn't live in the state should not play for another state.  I also do not agree with Kennedy marketing to basketball players in Europe a chance to "live in the US for a year" and setting up host families.  They should be penalized, but they found a hole in the PIAA rules.

It should then be closed in current legislation.

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