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Sandy no on consolidation


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1 hour ago, jaman said:

I have said for decades they built the Mall and businesses in the wrong place. Wrong Exit. They should have built on 219 between Falls Creek and Brockway Including Washington and Snyder Townships.  Better access from the west from Brookville and Corsica .. And better access from the North like places like Ridgway and even Johnsonburg.They catered to Treasure Lake business executives.  The 219 project would have been done . God bless the Grave of Sam valentine. he and a couple others presented this plan in the early 70's.  A lot of people laughed. I guess ol Sam was actually right. And i sure miss his cream pies. 

Really,  Few miles doesn't make that much difference..... but it's a shame the land in swampy so not much more can be built there.... but your thoughts do make sense 

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I can't think that anyone would not think that State College is thriving. They are building housing everywhere. We bought a place there and it wasn't outrageously expensive. Certainly, if you want a m

Who exactly is "they"?  Are you expecting the feudal lords of DuBois to swoop in, lay claim to all the the eye can see, and turn Sandy residents into peasants?   If you gathered 20 random pe

I am going to do all I can to rectify the no votes of the Supervisors. Only about 350 signatures are needed to get Consolidation on the ballot. Let the voters decide!!!!  

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43 minutes ago, Petee said:

The MAJOR sticking point is the vast differences between financial and living circumstances throughout the township.  There are farms, very modest homes, trailers, forest land, old roads, new roads, private roads, gated communities, businesses, etc.  Before those who can't afford any huge expensive changes vote yes, they need to be accounted for.  Those who have much more money and flexibility in their living or business circumstances are a completely separate entity.  Sandy has a Century Farm, ponds, small animals operations, places that never want to see an animal again unless it's for entertainment, subdivisions, private homes which are accessible but are PRIVATE by choice.  Not everyone want s a government entity getting into their own home business.

HOW are they going to accomodate these differences.  Till that is in writing, many people are terrified they won't be able to afford a consolidation, or it will make their living preferences intolerable.

My county here in Georgia is has everything from farms to cities with very nice downtown areas for entertaining, golf clubs and nice high end residential as well middle class and lower class living area.

Everything is county run.... it nice, it makes sense.  It's more efficient as well.  

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9 hours ago, JimmyPete said:

My county here in Georgia is has everything from farms to cities with very nice downtown areas for entertaining, golf clubs and nice high end residential as well middle class and lower class living area.

Everything is county run.... it nice, it makes sense.  It's more efficient as well.  

Big difference between GA and PA.  GA government is run more efficiently with lower taxes and red tape.  PA is not.  Oversimplification, yes, but GA policies encourages people and business to move there.  

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Let's be honest, consolidation would most likely be beneficial on a "nuts & bolts" level.  Meaning, better/more efficient utilities (i.e. sewage) and maybe local government.  Outside of that, the PA and county taxes will still be what they are.  Businesses would not be knocking down DuBois' door, roadways would not need another lane of traffic, new houses would not be built in droves, etc.  DuBois would be St.Mary's 2.0.  Wider city limits with a whole lotta nothing.  

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10 hours ago, JimmyPete said:

My county here in Georgia is has everything from farms to cities with very nice downtown areas for entertaining, golf clubs and nice high end residential as well middle class and lower class living area.

Everything is county run.... it nice, it makes sense.  It's more efficient as well.  

Yes. especially the school districts.

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1 hour ago, Cacao said:

Let's be honest, consolidation would most likely be beneficial on a "nuts & bolts" level.  Meaning, better/more efficient utilities (i.e. sewage) and maybe local government.  Outside of that, the PA and county taxes will still be what they are.  Businesses would not be knocking down DuBois' door, roadways would not need another lane of traffic, new houses would not be built in droves, etc.  DuBois would be St.Mary's 2.0.  Wider city limits with a whole lotta nothing.  

Sandy municipal authority  customers have the most to gain. Savings for some families would be over 800 dollars a year.  

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2 hours ago, Gold Brick said:

Keep fighting the good fight! Too bad we all can't get along!

It's too bad that the 200 page report can't be simplified and divided up for common consumption by the general public.  Then, when it's not a pig in a poke, maybe something beneficial can happen, but not in one huge fell swoop.

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8 hours ago, Cacao said:

Let's be honest, consolidation would most likely be beneficial on a "nuts & bolts" level.  Meaning, better/more efficient utilities (i.e. sewage) and maybe local government.  Outside of that, the PA and county taxes will still be what they are.  Businesses would not be knocking down DuBois' door, roadways would not need another lane of traffic, new houses would not be built in droves, etc.  DuBois would be St.Mary's 2.0.  Wider city limits with a whole lotta nothing.  

Great Analysis.

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Guest Township Resident

A few more points then unless someone specifically asks for my opinion I will stay silent since I am not a member of the site:

1.  To state the obvious, the 4-1 vote against moving forward with putting the issue on the ballot to let the people decide.  After what we saw in November, are we really comfortable letting a phone survey decide the biggest economic issue in our area?  Were any of you surveyed?  I was not.

2.  After voting to not move forward the supervisors are not suggesting that things remain the way they are.  According to the article on gantnews.com, the supervisors asked the township manager to explore becoming a home rule charter municipality.  It states:

"If the township became a “home rule charter,” it would affect its taxation powers. Currently, it stands at its legal limit for property taxes."

3.  So if the question in the survey was would you rather consolidate with the city or become a home rule municipality so we can raise property taxes what would the results have been?

Again, I do not have a problem with no consolidation.  My problem is with elected officials clearly ignoring the will of the people.

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2 hours ago, Gold Brick said:

We've  been fighting this for too long. The city folks have a lot to lose too. We have a first class response time for our fire department.  If combined with the country folk will this still be? Still can't understand why it's so hard to just work together and get along.

GREED

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21 hours ago, JimmyPete said:

I love our county library system here in Georgia. I can walk into any county library and take a book out. 

It was like that in Pittsburgh too. The Carnegie Free Libraries were wonderful. One free card usable in any library in the city. And there were lots of them. They were the delight of my childhood. Anyone who denies a child a book should have to answer to St. Peter at the Golden Gates. 

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16 hours ago, Guest Township Resident said:

A few more points then unless someone specifically asks for my opinion I will stay silent since I am not a member of the site:

1.  To state the obvious, the 4-1 vote against moving forward with putting the issue on the ballot to let the people decide.  After what we saw in November, are we really comfortable letting a phone survey decide the biggest economic issue in our area?  Were any of you surveyed?  I was not.

2.  After voting to not move forward the supervisors are not suggesting that things remain the way they are.  According to the article on gantnews.com, the supervisors asked the township manager to explore becoming a home rule charter municipality.  It states:

"If the township became a “home rule charter,” it would affect its taxation powers. Currently, it stands at its legal limit for property taxes."

3.  So if the question in the survey was would you rather consolidate with the city or become a home rule municipality so we can raise property taxes what would the results have been?

Again, I do not have a problem with no consolidation.  My problem is with elected officials clearly ignoring the will of the people.

Wonder how many Sandy TWP tax payers will support becoming a home rule charter so Sandy TWP officials can continue to keep raising taxes? I might be dead wrong on this, but they have raised taxes to the point of almost being maxed to help with expenditures. The problem is the cost of everything keeps rising coupled with the township not growing fast enough to bring in new revenues so their bright idea is to keep raising the bill of the taxpayers instead of finding a way to make it work at the current level. Maybe they should freeze wage increases, take away certain benefits, etc... to help with offsetting the costs. That would make sense though. Instead, it is always easier for the government to fall back on the tax payer to keep paying more and more taxes. As a citizen and taxpayer of Sandy TWP, I am deeply embarrassed at how they manage their funds and continually want more from the taxpayer. Not to mention how they bill their water customers out the wazoo. 

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45 minutes ago, DuB814 said:

Wonder how many Sandy TWP tax payers will support becoming a home rule charter so Sandy TWP officials can continue to keep raising taxes? I might be dead wrong on this, but they have raised taxes to the point of almost being maxed to help with expenditures. The problem is the cost of everything keeps rising coupled with the township not growing fast enough to bring in new revenues so their bright idea is to keep raising the bill of the taxpayers instead of finding a way to make it work at the current level. Maybe they should freeze wage increases, take away certain benefits, etc... to help with offsetting the costs. That would make sense though. Instead, it is always easier for the government to fall back on the tax payer to keep paying more and more taxes. As a citizen and taxpayer of Sandy TWP, I am deeply embarrassed at how they manage their funds and continually want more from the taxpayer. Not to mention how they bill their water customers out the wazoo. 

Taxes will definitely go up. There is a limit for the initial increase. Also a earned income tax could be increased to allow a reduction in property taxes( only for local taxes not county or school which are your highest ones now anyway) Taxes usually do not get raised too much because doing so would result in the office holder being unelected.

The most common objection is that Pa. home rule municipalities aren’t bound by state-set tax limits. While this is an advantage to governments that want to increase revenue, this may not be appealing to citizens who don’t want to see their taxes go up.

 

https://whyy.org/articles/what-is-home-rule/

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2 hours ago, Keyser Soze said:

Taxes will definitely go up. There is a limit for the initial increase. Also a earned income tax could be increased to allow a reduction in property taxes( only for local taxes not county or school which are your highest ones now anyway) Taxes usually do not get raised too much because doing so would result in the office holder being unelected.

The most common objection is that Pa. home rule municipalities aren’t bound by state-set tax limits. While this is an advantage to governments that want to increase revenue, this may not be appealing to citizens who don’t want to see their taxes go up.

 

https://whyy.org/articles/what-is-home-rule/

Thank you, sir! Whatever it is, they need to figure out how to stay afloat without the answer being raising taxes. At the end of the day, I am sure there is a cap on the home rule charter tax as well, so we will be back in the same boat. Raising taxes, to me, seems only like a temporary fix, not a solution. 

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1.  To state the obvious, the 4-1 vote against moving forward with putting the issue on the ballot to let the people decide.  After what we saw in November, are we really comfortable letting a phone survey decide the biggest economic issue in our area?  Were any of you surveyed?  I was not.

 

yes, yes I was...lol and some of my answers left the person speechless...:popcorn:

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Guest mike tost
On 6/10/2021 at 7:54 AM, Cacao said:

Big difference between GA and PA.  GA government is run more efficiently with lower taxes and red tape.  PA is not.  Oversimplification, yes, but GA policies encourages people and business to move there.  

Georgia has many great things going for it. Most of all its not in the north.

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13 hours ago, pennstater said:

Like I said before....Sandy is stupid for not consolidating.  Living in the 100 year past.  The area is crumbling (except the hospital). Time to move forward and become one and end the hundred year old grudge. 

I've lived here for 73 years.  There is no grudge!!  There is only a healthy caution on the part of the supposedly backwoods township people who were regularly looked down on and taken advantage of through the years because the country residents are less demanding than a city person.  That's not true.  What we in the country demand is peace, quiet and freedom to live as we choose within the bounds of human patience.  Because we live in the country we expect dust, wild greenery, healthy animals roaming somewhat freely, and we know how to deal fairly with them.  Country people can cope with anything but intrusion.  Many of them do not have extra money and others are frugal with their living at any rate.  We do not have the option of jumping on a bus, getting a cab or walking easily to a job.  No sidewalks, lightly paved roads, much land for pollinators and healthy wild animals without getting into too much trouble.  Few, if any, nosy neighbors trying to organize your life into their model, getting up in the morning to peace and a morning crow or moo in the distance.  We aren't limited to driving to a park or a forest to find cool, lovely nature.  We're in it and we want to keep it that way.

No one runs our lives although there are limits just to keep the peace somewhat if the township supervisors find a problem and need some guidelines to solve the problems.  They live here and know what is needed to keep our area growing and a good place to live.  

Letting this process into the hands of a business entity intent on just making more big tax money isn't an option to anyone but city people who have moved to the country to have better living conditions.  They're sprinkled in huge houses all through Sandy Township.  If they support a consolidation, they're cutting off their own freedoms.  Look at the big housing sections around the edges of the city limits.  Why are they there if the living conditions in the city are so great?  Why not an apartment downtown or a cheaper house on a city street?  

There is greed and a control issue motivating this effort.  They want anything they can get from Sandy Township, but not to improve it, they want to use it for quick financial gain through government money.  Sandy Township can do that on their own.  They don't need the city to do it.  

This got started again because the Township had land on which to build a much needed larger township building, and somehow the city wanted in on it.  Then the ball got rolling again after it has been turned down numerous times.  

Sandy has begun to grow on its own.  It's a careful, planned growth that will impinge on no one.  DuBois needs to do the same without plans for fame and fortune at any cost, including the costs to the history (which is never heard) of Sandy Township, peaceful living and space for children and young people without destroying the lives of others, poor or rich.  The more developed areas will seep out from town slowly and in an easily digested pace, not an explosive tax-money fed beast which will only want more, and more, and more.

  

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8 minutes ago, Petee said:

I've lived here for 73 years.  There is no grudge!!  There is only a healthy caution on the part of the supposedly backwoods township people who were regularly looked down on and taken advantage of through the years because the country residents are less demanding than a city person.  That's not true.  What we in the country demand is peace, quiet and freedom to live as we choose within the bounds of human patience.  Because we live in the country we expect dust, wild greenery, healthy animals roaming somewhat freely, and we know how to deal fairly with them.  Country people can cope with anything but intrusion.  Many of them do not have extra money and others are frugal with their living at any rate.  We do not have the option of jumping on a bus, getting a cab or walking easily to a job.  No sidewalks, lightly paved roads, much land for pollinators and healthy wild animals without getting into too much trouble.  Few, if any, nosy neighbors trying to organize your life into their model, getting up in the morning to peace and a morning crow or moo in the distance.  We aren't limited to driving to a park or a forest to find cool, lovely nature.  We're in it and we want to keep it that way.

No one runs our lives although there are limits just to keep the peace somewhat if the township supervisors find a problem and need some guidelines to solve the problems.  They live here and know what is needed to keep our area growing and a good place to live.  

Letting this process into the hands of a business entity intent on just making more big tax money isn't an option to anyone but city people who have moved to the country to have better living conditions.  They're sprinkled in huge houses all through Sandy Township.  If they support a consolidation, they're cutting off their own freedoms.  Look at the big housing sections around the edges of the city limits.  Why are they there if the living conditions in the city are so great?  Why not an apartment downtown or a cheaper house on a city street?  

There is greed and a control issue motivating this effort.  They want anything they can get from Sandy Township, but not to improve it, they want to use it for quick financial gain through government money.  Sandy Township can do that on their own.  They don't need the city to do it.  

This got started again because the Township had land on which to build a much needed larger township building, and somehow the city wanted in on it.  Then the ball got rolling again after it has been turned down numerous times.  

Sandy has begun to grow on its own.  It's a careful, planned growth that will impinge on no one.  DuBois needs to do the same without plans for fame and fortune at any cost, including the costs to the history (which is never heard) of Sandy Township, peaceful living and space for children and young people without destroying the lives of others, poor or rich.  The more developed areas will seep out from town slowly and in an easily digested pace, not an explosive tax-money fed beast which will only want more, and more, and more.

  

Please tell me your response was just rhetoric and not actually what you believe? If not, my goodness, you have to leave your homestead every once in a while to see the rest of the country and how successful areas operate. As it has been said many times before, NO ONE IS COMING TO TAKE YOUR LAND OR BUILD SKY SKRAPERS IN YOUR BACK YARD. Sandy TWP is growing as such a slow rate that is cannot keep up with its expenditures, as it seems, which is why their taxes are almost maxed out. PLEASE, FOR THE SAKE OF EVERYONE, WAKE UP! 

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40 minutes ago, Petee said:

I've lived here for 73 years.  There is no grudge!!  There is only a healthy caution on the part of the supposedly backwoods township people who were regularly looked down on and taken advantage of through the years because the country residents are less demanding than a city person.  That's not true.  What we in the country demand is peace, quiet and freedom to live as we choose within the bounds of human patience.  Because we live in the country we expect dust, wild greenery, healthy animals roaming somewhat freely, and we know how to deal fairly with them.  Country people can cope with anything but intrusion.  Many of them do not have extra money and others are frugal with their living at any rate.  We do not have the option of jumping on a bus, getting a cab or walking easily to a job.  No sidewalks, lightly paved roads, much land for pollinators and healthy wild animals without getting into too much trouble.  Few, if any, nosy neighbors trying to organize your life into their model, getting up in the morning to peace and a morning crow or moo in the distance.  We aren't limited to driving to a park or a forest to find cool, lovely nature.  We're in it and we want to keep it that way.

No one runs our lives although there are limits just to keep the peace somewhat if the township supervisors find a problem and need some guidelines to solve the problems.  They live here and know what is needed to keep our area growing and a good place to live.  

Letting this process into the hands of a business entity intent on just making more big tax money isn't an option to anyone but city people who have moved to the country to have better living conditions.  They're sprinkled in huge houses all through Sandy Township.  If they support a consolidation, they're cutting off their own freedoms.  Look at the big housing sections around the edges of the city limits.  Why are they there if the living conditions in the city are so great?  Why not an apartment downtown or a cheaper house on a city street?  

There is greed and a control issue motivating this effort.  They want anything they can get from Sandy Township, but not to improve it, they want to use it for quick financial gain through government money.  Sandy Township can do that on their own.  They don't need the city to do it.  

This got started again because the Township had land on which to build a much needed larger township building, and somehow the city wanted in on it.  Then the ball got rolling again after it has been turned down numerous times.  

Sandy has begun to grow on its own.  It's a careful, planned growth that will impinge on no one.  DuBois needs to do the same without plans for fame and fortune at any cost, including the costs to the history (which is never heard) of Sandy Township, peaceful living and space for children and young people without destroying the lives of others, poor or rich.  The more developed areas will seep out from town slowly and in an easily digested pace, not an explosive tax-money fed beast which will only want more, and more, and more.

  

Nothing you posted is true. It’s pure conjecture.  So the hundred year grudge continues……

We can’t grow if we arent United.   Mind you …..I have lived in Sandy township for over twenty years.  And I can unequivocally say it’s stupid that we aren’t together as one.  

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